Steven Lutz, representing Rugged Rocks and Rugged Routes, delves into the world of elusive off-road components and recreational navigation for off-road enthusiasts, using an unexpected platform. Meanwhile, Holman provides a review of the Ram Rebel HD and shares insights into his upcoming adventure. Proudly sponsored by Nissan and in partnership with Banks Power, this is The Truck Show Podcast.


The following transcription of The Truck Show Podcast was generated using a speech recognition software, and will contain errors. Please review the timestamp and listen to the corresponding audio for accuracy. 

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Jay “Lightning” Tilles (0s):

Home. and you remember that truck that I owned for like a minute, that old 66 Chevy C 20 that I drove around stock and it was fun. And then the one that I

Sean P. Holman (8s):

Bought for you and I warned you don’t go full seima on it, that one. And then you did. And then Gail said, well since we put all the effort into this, I’d like the pink slip. Yeah. So

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17s):

That happened and then we took it to sema. Yeah. And then we took it to Dino’s get down, and then we took it to the dmax factory and we took it to Hot Wheels event. And then I hurt the engine and then we pulled the engine out and then we brought the truck up to Sean Ramages Place, empire Fabrication. And he blew the whole truck apart, powder coated everything. And we’re putting it back together to bring it back to SEMA this year. So if you’re headed to the SEMA show in November, lock Jaw will be in the AMS oil booth, which is pretty badass. What I didn’t realize Holman was what a rat’s nest of a wiring job that we created when we slapped it together before going to SEMA two years ago.

Sean P. Holman (60s):

Well, it already was a rat’s nest wiring because when we drove it, it was sparking from the wires hanging from under the dash as you drove and the wires, it was hung under the dash and touched each other. So

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (1m 10s):

It’s crazy. We have so many sensors connected to that Derm Max engine. And we have, so it’s got a Motech ECMA, Motech PDM for all the power distribution and it’s all controlled by a 15 key keypad. And we’re at a can buss channel. So there’s wires for all that stuff. It’s, and what happened is that the guys who were awesome at Banks, when they wired it, They did a decent job. But they loomed every single wire. So they’re all black.

Sean P. Holman (1m 38s):

So I was gonna a show.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (1m 39s):

No, no. But they’re, yes. But now, so when we got it back, we’re like every wire’s black. Where? What goes to what? We can’t tell what colors they’re like, we called up one of Sean Ramages buddies who does race car wiring and he’s been working and

Sean P. Holman (1m 52s):

He went, hell no.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (1m 53s):

That’s funny. Yes, that’s exactly what he said.

Sean P. Holman (1m 56s):

I’ve met wiring guys and when they see somebody else’s rat’s nest, they want to cut it all out and start from scratch.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (2m 2s):

And so we let him do

Sean P. Holman (2m 3s):

That. Yeah. I’m not surprised.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (2m 5s):

And we hired him and he’s been at Banks for the last couple days. I put him up on a hotel room

Sean P. Holman (2m 9s):

Only a couple days, dude. He’s gonna be living outta that penthouse suite for a week or two.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (2m 14s):

Nope, he doesn’t have enough time because we are putting the engine in and he’s gotta be done Whoa. And he’s getting on a plane to go somewhere on a trip So. anyway, he’s getting it done. I hope. Knock on wood. We tore the engine down. We reser coated the whole thing in Banks red, which is I made, I changed the Banks red that Saraco offered and now it’s a little deeper. It’s really cool. It’s got some metallic in it. By the time you’re hearing this, the engine is back in the truck and if all goes as well, fingers and toes crossed, it’ll get on the dynos so we can finally tell people what it makes to the rear wheels under full boost.

Sean P. Holman (2m 48s):

’cause nobody knows.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (2m 49s):

No one knows. We don’t know. We don’t have a freaking clue. We hope it makes like 5, 5 50 or more horsepower.

Sean P. Holman (2m 54s):

Yeah, that’s it.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (2m 56s):

We don’t know. No one’s are you,

Sean P. Holman (2m 58s):

No one’s had a Whipple three point under shooting it

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (2m 60s):

Leader. No one’s had a Whipple supercharger on a durmax L five P before like

Sean P. Holman (3m 5s):

This. I was thinking like six 50 would be good.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (3m 7s):

We want six 50 and then when we add the nitrous, we wanted it in the eights or eight 50. But we don’t know. It’s all, we have a a conference call by the time you hear this. Well I’ve already had a conference call with Dustin Whipple who’s gonna tell us how to manage the heat a little better. It was just, it was generating so much heat. It’s been a quite an adventure trying to get this thing to run and run. Right. Knock on wood, it’ll be running and I can drive it into the Amsel booth this year at SEMA and not have to push it like we did two years ago. ’cause that sucked So. anyway, there’s my log jaw update the truck I don’t own anymore. That’s cool.

Sean P. Holman (3m 46s):

Well that’s great. On the log jaw update, I want an update on what these freaking boxes are behind my chair here because they’ve been in the studio for a few weeks now and they’re just mystery and you’re like, oh we gotta do this for the show. And then you leave and you go, Hey, do you still have those boxes? I’m like, the ones you left in the shed and forgot about yet.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (4m 5s):

So if you recall Scott Birdsall, our buddy who owns Old Smokey or what remains of Old Smokey, I found out that he partnered up with any Gravity batteries to make jumper packs and all these really cool

Sean P. Holman (4m 16s):

They do live in Ion. Yes. Deep cycle batteries. That’s what I knew ’em for. All

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (4m 20s):

Sorts of stuff. Exactly.

Sean P. Holman (4m 21s):

And they also make portable power stations and they’ve got some solar panels, but what I didn’t note that they made was

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (4m 27s):

Jumper packs. Ones that will start a big rig from like, you could pull the battery out completely the stock battery and jump a freaking Peterbilt with one of these jumper packs that you can hold in one hand.

Sean P. Holman (4m 40s):

All. right. Well I’m gonna give you the Microstar XP 15. Okay, I got it. And then I’m gonna have the XP 20 over here. All.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (4m 47s):

Right. Can I borrow your knife

Sean P. Holman (4m 49s):

Hold on

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (4m 50s):

All? right.

Sean P. Holman (4m 52s):

For 250 bucks on the xp. 20 HD microstar. This is again the the HD heavy duty model. You’ll be able to jumpstart Diesel trucks up to eight liters and gas engines up to 10 liters.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (5m 7s):

All. right. Wow. Oh damn. Look at what this,

Sean P. Holman (5m 11s):

It’ll allow you to charge your power laptops 12 volt devices, USB devices 930 amps of starting current 4,650 amps. Peak 24,000 million amp capacity for 88.8 watt hours, a hundred watt ultra fast charging superfast recharging. So this thing will recharge itself in only an hour. And it’s pretty compact. They’re saying the most compact in the industry, nine and a half inches by four inches by two inches comes with a bright LED flashlight built in a carrying case. And then all of the accessories. That’s a lot of capability for 250 bucks. And on top of that it’s got a color LCD screen that tells you everything that you need to know about the status of the pack and whatnot.

Sean P. Holman (5m 51s):

So what these are, are basically, instead of carrying a set of heavy duty jumper cables, like I typically do that take up like the whole underbody of your seat because You know the, the, the cheap ones you get at Kmart or Target or Walmart or wherever, they don’t, they aren’t thick enough to start a lot of vehicles. So you’ll get to something with a big draw. Something that requires a lot of coal cranking apps. And a lot of times the cables just aren’t big enough. In fact, there’s

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (6m 15s):

Too much resistance in the line. Yep.

Sean P. Holman (6m 17s):

And so what you could do is this little box, this little tiny box that could probably fit in most people’s center console has enough juice to replace those jumper cables. And the best part is you don’t have to nose two vehicles together or have somebody inexperienced figure out how to hook ’em up. You can go directly to the battery from this jump pack boom, ready to go. So it takes a lot of space and gives that back to you in your rig, which is super awesome.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (6m 41s):

So this XB 15, it kind of reminds me, it looks like your makeup kit suitcase? No, my makeup kit,

Sean P. Holman (6m 46s):

That’s one.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (6m 46s):

No, no I don’t have a makeup kit. No, it’s

Sean P. Holman (6m 48s):

Not that small. Yours is much bigger.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (6m 50s):

Yeah, no, mine opens up and I’ve got all the Mac cosmetics inside You. know what I’m saying? My blush and my rouge

Sean P. Holman (6m 55s):

All. right. And real quick on the XB 20, I’m excited about this ’cause I’m gonna take it with me on my trip, which I’ll get into in a minute. But this comes with carrying case smart clamp ER cables, USBC to USBA cable, A-U-S-B-C to USBC cable, which I’m gonna really enjoy using on my new iPhone 15 Pro.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (7m 13s):

You did not order one, did you really? Yeah, of

Sean P. Holman (7m 16s):

Course. Year Friday I, I’m on the every two year plan and then my kid gets my, my old one. So that way I only have to buy one phone every two years rather than one phone every year. Anyway, this has the card charger and the cigarette lighter adapter. So these things are gonna be awesome. Like I said, they replace jumper cables for most people in your vehicles. I’m looking forward to taking this out. I’m gonna be on literally a week long trip through the desert. Super cool. I, I’ll just give you a little bit of detail on it. We are attempting to reopen an over a hundred mile route that hasn’t been on a map since 1912. And we’re going out with the BBL M

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (7m 49s):

So wait, wait, wait, wait. Is this, are there, so there’s no tracks obviously there’s not like how do You know that you’re on a trail?

Sean P. Holman (7m 55s):

So I’m going with Desert Explore Re and he and I are partnering with my friend Chris Callard, who’s a photojournalist and members of the Bureau of Land Management. And they’ve agreed to take us out and if we can show them that we can make this old trail compliant, they’re gonna add it back to the map and make it a new overlanding trail in, in California.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (8m 17s):

What do you mean by compliant?

Sean P. Holman (8m 18s):

Because the last time it was on a map was in 1912 and since that time there’s been private property in wilderness areas. So the original route will only be able to do about 40% of it ’cause the rest of it’s in wilderness area. So we have to find a way to get from point A to point B while going around all the obstacles that exist now. Roads that have washed out over a hundred years. Wilderness area where you just can’t drive anymore. Lemme put it this way. There was a corner of the trip that would’ve been a hundred yards to, to cut a corner, but because that little tiny corner was a wilderness area, the BBL M said, yeah, no, that’s not happening. That would’ve taken an act of Congress for you to drive across that.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (8m 53s):

Are you kidding me? So wait, how big, literally how big was this corner?

Sean P. Holman (8m 56s):

Like a hundred yards. Just driving the, cutting a corner across to, to attach two roads together that don’t attach currently. What? So we have to figure out how to go from point A to boy and be using as much of the old road as possible. Yeah. While not running a foul of any of the current rules and regulations.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (9m 14s):

Can you build a wooden bridge?

Sean P. Holman (9m 16s):

No, but what we did do is I was able to find the high resolution map from 1912 and 1910, which are the, the two sides of this trail. and I was able to match it up with the satellite imagery and onyx maps and we were able to route the entire route based on some roads, some portions of this road still exist today as other roads. And we were able to go through and map it out and we’ve got a route that we think is gonna be compliant and if everything works out, we are gonna be able to bring Overlanders yet another trail here in California through the M-D-H-C-A. So check it out. We’ve got the Mojave Road, we’ve got the EMHT, and then we will have this new road, which I’m not going to tell you what it is ’cause I don’t want, I I don’t want Jinx what we’re working on and I wanna make sure that we do it right.

Sean P. Holman (10m 0s):


Jay “Lightning” Tilles (10m 1s):

Will name the road? Or is it already

Sean P. Holman (10m 2s):

Named already? Has the Yeah, already has

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (10m 4s):

The name. Oh really?

Sean P. Holman (10m 4s):

Yeah, it’s, and you’ll find the history. Fascinating. I think maybe after I get back, ’cause in fact while we’re recording this, I’m out on the trail. So I will have to let You know whether or not I used the micro Jump Start pack because I ran my fridge too long for my, my cold Dr. Peppers.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (10m 20s):

I’m not, I’m not really worried about you. I’m worried about one of the guys that you’re with. Well, You know what I’m saying. Well,

Sean P. Holman (10m 25s):

I’m taking this with me because this is gonna be the, the perfect tool because with all overlanders we tend to carry a lot of gear with us. So anything lightweight and smaller is better. So I’m super excited about that. And if we’re successful in this mission, we will be able to a tell you the history about it because we found thanks to the M-D-H-C-A archives, a ton of newspaper articles from when this road was originally built with them talking about it and even cooler, we’re gonna be able to bring back another trail to Overlanders. We’ve got Mojave Road, EMHT, and now this trail. And for those of you who are familiar with, have you ever heard the Explorer Club?

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (11m 3s):

No. So the

Sean P. Holman (11m 4s):

Explorers Club is a club out of New York that has chapters internationally and they have flags that you can submit to go on an expedition under a flag of the Explorers Club. And each of these flags has history because they get reused and they get hung up. There’s a whole thing. We’ll have Billy on to talk about it. You

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (11m 23s):

Can see the look up. My face is perplexed. So

Sean P. Holman (11m 26s):

Doula research on it. Okay, after the show, look up the Explorers Club. We are actually doing this as a Explorer Club expedition under, and this is not under

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (11m 35s):

A flag. This is not the Explorers like associated with Boy Scouts. Those explorers?

Sean P. Holman (11m 38s):

No. Okay. No. And on top of that, they have awarded us for this trip, a Rolex Explorer watch to wear on the expedition under their flag. So Billy’s gonna be wearing a Rolex. What? We have to give it all back. Okay.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (11m 53s):

But there’s,

Sean P. Holman (11m 53s):

There’s these artifacts that come with you that are part of the expedition and they get recorded into Explorer Club history. It’s amazing. So we’re, this is like a once in a lifetime deal where I’m gonna be able to join a small group, hopefully reopen a desert trail that has been closed in wilderness area and give something back. So if you guys wanna support us in this cause head over to md and donate or become a member today. Because one of the reasons we’re gonna be able to do this is because of the support of M-D-H-C-A. And I’ll be writing a story in OVR Mag about it. Not often that there’s a private public government partnership where you work together to reopen

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (12m 31s):

Something. Well, everyone, I Mean, everyone. When was the last

Sean P. Holman (12m 32s):

Time you heard about trail oat reopened? Well,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (12m 34s):

Not only that, like how many times have you heard anyone work with the Bureau of Land Management? Never

Sean P. Holman (12m 39s):

To do something

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (12m 40s):

Cool? No, I, I haven’t. So usually is they’re the enemy of fun. So

Sean P. Holman (12m 43s):

This is gonna be awesome. So I. I’m really looking forward. We’ve got, again, the three of us and then we’ve got a field manager, I believe a geologist and archeologist and maybe a botanist going with us. So they’re gonna make sure that the, the trail doesn’t run through like You know endangered species and through sensitive cultural areas and all that kinda stuff. So it’s gonna be awesome because these people on the trail are gonna be able to tell so much information about where we’re going and and the area around us. So we’re gonna be learning as we’re going. That’s

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (13m 10s):

Super cool.

Sean P. Holman (13m 12s):

All, right? Well if you’re looking for more information on these really awesome anti-gravity microstar packs, head over to anti-gravity and check ’em out. And I’ll tell you what I think.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (13m 22s):

Hmm. But what do you think about Nissan?

Sean P. Holman (13m 25s):

I’m so stoked for the hard buyer to come out. I think that thing looks so rad. I think Nissan’s awesome. I think if you’re in the market for a brand new truck and you need reliability, dependability, and some value with a truck that’s stylish and screwed together really well, then I think you should have Nissan on your list. So you can head on over to your local Nissan dealer where you can check out the Nissan Frontier, the Nissan Titan, or the Nissan Titan Xd. Of course the Titans have the industry’s best five year, 100,000 mile warranty. And without Nissan this show wouldn’t be possible. So if you do us a solid, if you’re in the market, put ’em at the top of your list and head over to Nissan where you can build and price the Nissan that matches your needs and check out those new trucks today. Hey

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (14m 1s):

Holman, if you had a friend with a 2006, let’s say a Ram with a five nine Cummins and he was looking for, he is like, I, I want a tow with this thing, but it’s a little anemic. I need a tuner. Who do I turn to? Well, if

Sean P. Holman (14m 14s):

You want a tuner that has active safety and isn’t gonna blow up your ride while giving you better drivability, then there’s only one place to go. And that’s Banks

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (14m 22s):

You got your choice of the Economy mine tuner or the six Gun tuner. Both are in line. So when you pull ’em off, it’s like they were never there. You can add over a hundred horsepower on each of those one’s designed for fuel economy and one’s just flat out power. Find yours at Banks On this episode, we’ve got five star hotline calls. Your email a truck review and Steven Lutz from Rugged Routes. It’s all coming

2 (14m 45s):

Up the truck show we’re gonna show, you know, we’re gonna answer what? The truck, because truck rides with the truck show. We have the lifted, we have the lowered end, everything in between. We’ll talk about trucks that run on Diesel and the ones that run on gasoline. The truck show. The truck show. The truck show Whoa.

3 (15m 17s):

It’s the truck show with your hosts Lightning and Holman.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (15m 24s):

So Holman Steven Lutz reached out to you on Facebook, correct? I guess about some Nissan parts. He knew that we were doing a lot with Nissan and then somehow your conversation kind of veered into off-Road navigation. Yeah,

Sean P. Holman (15m 38s):

This was like a year and a half ago. So we’ve got this nice little DMM thread coming. Wait a minute.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (15m 42s):

Wait. It took you a year and a half to realize that he might be a good guest?

Sean P. Holman (15m 46s):

No, no, no. I, I offered it and then it just took us that long to put it all together. I see. No, I did not drop the ball on that one probably, but but we can rectify either way. We can rectify it by calling him right now. Okay.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (15m 57s):

All right? I’ve got his number. He, oh, it’s 9 0 9. So that’s, he’s in Southern California. Here

Sean P. Holman (16m 1s):

He is in SoCal. All. right.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (16m 2s):

Let’s dial Steven Lutz.

5 (16m 9s):


Jay “Lightning” Tilles (16m 10s):

Steve. It’s Lightning and Holman Truck. Show Podcast. How you doing?

5 (16m 13s):

Hey, pretty good. How are you guys doing?

Sean P. Holman (16m 15s):


Jay “Lightning” Tilles (16m 15s):

Happening? Fantastic. We’re doing awesome now that we got you on the phone and we’ve got a quick intro to play. So please do not move.

2 (16m 22s):

Welcome to the parts department,

6 (16m 25s):

Screw nut filter oil grill tools, the

2 (16m 30s):

Polar departed

6 (16m 31s):

Wheels, tires, brakes, lice, ears, belts, the

2 (16m 36s):

Polar depart and your wife warns you not to, don’t do spend that money and then you wanna come back.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (16m 44s):

So apparently Steven, it took like a year and a half to line you up as a guest and we’re, I guess we’re

Sean P. Holman (16m 49s):

A little slow. Well it started because he had like features and magazines and he’s like, Hey, could you recirculate this photo? And hey, I’m doing KOH oh by the way make hardcore Nissan parts like you should be on the show in a year and a half or something like that. I think that’s kinda how that works.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 3s):

We are, we are not smart, efficient or, or talented. I think we all

5 (17m 8s):

Just do the best we

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 8s):

Can. Maybe so,

Sean P. Holman (17m 9s):

And, and some people’s best is way better than ours. Ours is, we have a a a a motto on the show. I’m actually, Lightning hasn’t heard this before. I’m gonna introduce,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 17s):


Sean P. Holman (17m 17s):

Guess what it is. Yeah, be

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 18s):


Sean P. Holman (17m 19s):

It’s close. Okay. No, this is gonna be a new T-shirt. What’s that? Truck? Show Podcast. Where good enough is

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 25s):

Where good enough is. Oh, I like that. Yeah,

Sean P. Holman (17m 27s):

Yeah, yeah. Doesn’t that flow? It just flow right up and tongue Good enough is I feel like that’s how we

6 (17m 30s):


Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 32s):

Write that down. ’cause that is definitely a T-shirt. Where good

2 (17m 34s):

Enough is

Sean P. Holman (17m 35s):

I’ll add to my T-shirt file. That’s why we have to have guests like Steven Lutz on who are better than us because it elevates us. Hopefully

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 41s):

It might’ve been smarter to play the Entrepreneur jingle because we’ll play

Sean P. Holman (17m 45s):


Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 45s):

Oh, you think So I

Sean P. Holman (17m 46s):

Should? Yeah. What the heck? Go for it.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 48s):

All, right? So. let me just find my, oh. ’cause he’s an entrepreneur. Here we go. What does it take to be an entrepreneur? What does it take to be an entrepreneur

7 (17m 56s):


Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 59s):

Don’t let anyone

7 (18m 4s):


Jay “Lightning” Tilles (18m 9s):

Entrepreneur. Wow. Steven got hit with two jingles, two

Sean P. Holman (18m 14s):

Intro and we and nobody knows what he does. Still we’re

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (18m 16s):

20 minutes in the show. No. Okay, so you guys hit it off. Yeah. Holman and, and Steve were two Lovebirds talking about Nissans. And then I guess that

Sean P. Holman (18m 25s):

Seems, that seems

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (18m 26s):

You found out that, so So Holman you found out that he’s the guy behind Rugged Routes and Rugged Rocks. Rugged Rocks offers Nissan parts off-roading, Nissan parts and then Rugged Routes are like plugins for ance GPS systems.

Sean P. Holman (18m 42s):

Yeah, so if you have like a ance, a lot of people use them for racing KOH Baja fishing boats, but they’re not really necessarily the easiest to use for like recreation. And he basically has been working on the Rugged Routes in order to load recreational level data into your existing lorent. So if you don’t wanna buy You know a different unit and you want to You know, be able to maximize the unit you have, this might be an opportunity if you’re somebody your pre-run or races or, or you wanna steal your dad’s lorent of his fishing boat, take it off road.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (19m 18s):

Yeah. Steve, how did this all start?

5 (19m 20s):

Well, which part? The Nissan part or

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (19m 24s):

Let’s start with like, start with Nissan.

5 (19m 26s):

Well, the Nissan stuff started when my parents bought a Nissan. I was, I was five years old and they, they bought a 1990 Pathfinder and that was how I got to preschool. My mom drove me all around in it and then it became my first car as we were growing up. We had spent some time in the desert, did some dirt bike riding, that sort of thing. That thing had seen the dirt a little bit here and there over the years. And when it became mine, I started playing in the dirt as well. And being a, a broke 16-year-old that basically was just trying to work with what I had and I turned to the internet and found some forums where I found a bunch of other people that were also just looking for parts for their Nissans.

5 (20m 8s):

And at the time I was working for a, a company that’s no longer around called nx and we were selling dirt bike parts. So that’s how I got introduced to e-Commerce. So I just kind of brought in my e-commerce experience to the Nissan world, started making connections at shows, et cetera, et cetera. And then I just kind of snowballed. and I originally was only gonna do it for a small handful of years, but You know, 17 years in somehow I’m still here. So there you have it. So

Sean P. Holman (20m 34s):

Are you like the go-to Nissan purveyor

5 (20m 39s):

For a lot of stuff, yeah, but I’ve also tried to play nice with other players in the Nissan market, so maybe not the best businessman in, in that regard, but I, I try not to step on too many toes in this space. you know, I, I’ve done a lot of like solid access swap stuff on the, the super old trucks, like, like late eighties, early nineties and even through the early two thousands. And then as we got into the second gen, Sara and Frontiers started doing a lot, started locker room gear stuff, So I, worked with superior axle gear when they were around to, to bring gears out and kept those available ever since. And just worked with a bunch of companies just kind of filling in gaps here and there where, where I saw it needed to be built.

5 (21m 21s):


Sean P. Holman (21m 22s):

What, what I love about it is you have it set up super easy to navigate. So Armada Frontier, hard Body, Pathfinder patrol, Titan Xterra, and then it’s broken down by year make model, and then it’s broken down also by category. So it’s really hard sometimes to find aftermarket Nissan parts or somebody might have a listing and you don’t, they don’t have the, the right year range or, or whatever. It’s nice ’cause I can go out and I can pick a oh five to 21 Frontier, which is the D 40. And then I can go through and you’ve got, you know, listings for, you know, everything from air intakes and lockers to axle shafts, coil overs, clutches, diff covers, headers, let’s see, leaf springs leveling kits, ring and Pinion, which are sometimes hard to find.

Sean P. Holman (22m 5s):

And then solid axle swap stuff. So I mean you really have it covered for, for the Nissan enthusiast. And

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (22m 11s):

By the way, this is, yeah, Rugged Rocks If you just google Rugged Rocks, it’ll pop right up.

5 (22m 17s):

That’s exactly it. And yeah, a lot of these parts, You know, I I still have a lot of ’em listed, even they’re not, if they’re not available anymore, just so people kind of know. And still, it’s easier to find me, but when people are looking for stuff and, and sometimes I still get tech calls or for things that I can’t fulfill, but I still try to send people off in the right direction. So, I, I really just try to be as helpful as I can regardless of what comes through the phone. So You know, over the years a lot of things have changed, but You know I’m still doing it, still still doing everything I, I can in the Nissan space.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (22m 47s):

And and what year did this start, Steve? And, and did it start as a brick and mortar? Did you have like a little 1200 square foot unit or was it online?

Sean P. Holman (22m 53s):

2006, right is

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (22m 54s):

Oh six started

5 (22m 55s):

2006. Yeah, I had a, I had a full load cast and an old laptop and I was posted on the couch for a month and a half, couldn’t really do anything. So that, that was the, the beginnings of actually putting the website together and, and just selling online. I eventually did get some shop space for a handful of years and through the, the peak of the Nissan years we were, we were building some stuff and we, we had a good thing going on there. Then the last handful of years kind of dialed it back down. So we’re not doing work on trucks anymore, but, but the parts are still available. You know, still doing a lot again to get orders out.

5 (23m 35s):


Sean P. Holman (23m 36s):

So then how did that parlay into the other business, which is navigation

5 (23m 42s):

So outta personal need? I had heard about Lorent being used in the racetracks for a really long time and eventually got my hands on one and realized that although the hardware could be solid hardware, the software side of it was quite lacking. So I had reached out to Lorent and it was really just kind of dumb luck timing, kind of told him I was a computer nerd, by the way. I’m big computer nerd. Been doing electronics and computer stuff since I was about six years older or so, just kind of introduced myself, told ’em what I wanted to do, I knew what what I wanted to do was possible. And turned out that they were piloting some new software on, on the inside of the company that they were able to get me access to.

5 (24m 22s):

Started playing around with it and, and once I did my first map or two, I was like, holy cow, like I’m not the only one that’s gonna want this So I. I started building those maps where I could so You know I’m still doing Nissan stuff, but then if the phone’s not ringing and caught up, caught up on other things and I kind of shift gears started trekking down this, this other path of making ance even more useful in the off-road space.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (24m 48s):

Man, I have so many questions. Okay, so when, when did the, the Nissan thing become full-time or was it full-time? And then when did the Rugged Routes become like real more than just one map?

5 (25m 0s):

That happened probably around 2014 or 15, something like that. It, it’s hard to really remember because once I made my first couple maps, I spun up a website pretty much overnight and I was just like, You know what? I’m not gonna advertise it, I’m just gonna get it ranked in Google and if people are looking for what I have, hopefully it’ll, it’ll come up and we’ll just kind see where it goes. and I started making sales probably, I dunno, just a handful of days later, I Mean, it was slow, like really, really slow. It was kind of proof of concept. And then my, you know, my possibilities in my mind just started kind of unraveling after that.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (25m 38s):

Loz take us to the, the actual piece of hardware. It, I think that a lot of our listeners who maybe have never done any hardcore wheeling or or off-road in the desert and whatnot, don’t really know what this device even is. I mean, you can imagine it’s a GPS device and it’s a really beautiful map.

Sean P. Holman (25m 52s):

Think of it, of a, a ruggedized You know hardware made for basically the worst wet dust everything and vibration proof, I Mean, these is the same systems that they’re using in trophy trucks and things like that. Big

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (26m 5s):

Rubber buttons with arrows on ’em and a high res, relatively high risk green. Although some of the early ones were like dot Matrix green and like I remember the original ones that looked like, I guess a lot of people probably are familiar with like what depth finders or these things that are used on boats, right? They very look, look very similar in size and feel. Then over the years, of course the, the screens got much, much better. And all the guys from King of the Hammers to all the Baja You know one thousands. You use a ance. Some guys also supplement it with an iPad and some other devices. But really ance is I think kind of the gold standard for off-Road nav, right?

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (26m 46s):


Sean P. Holman (26m 46s):

Certainly for racing. What

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (26m 48s):

Else is there? What, what am I not aware of that’s out there?

Sean P. Holman (26m 51s):

Well, Garmin has a, has some new You know options. Obviously we’ve, you know, done a lot with OnX on the consumer side. There’s a lot of different categories and

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (27m 0s):

I guess I meant, I’m

Sean P. Holman (27m 1s):

Sorry, Magellan is another one.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (27m 2s):

I said that I meant, I meant the Hardcore Racer. So in that case it’s

Sean P. Holman (27m 6s):

So, so Lorent and Garmin is now jumping into that with their new Baja set up that they just what unveiled You know beginning of the year I think or end of last year. Yep.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (27m 15s):

And so they gave you this software and what was the first map that you made? Where

5 (27m 20s):

I did Jonathan’s alley first.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (27m 22s):

So Home of King of the Hammers.

5 (27m 24s):

Yeah, that was the first one. Had some experience out there with people showing up and not having any idea where the trails were, right. Because there’s only a few that have like plaques, but it’s not like you just pull into the lake bed and you’re like, oh, there’s a trail and, and you just, you go have fun. It’s, you’re, if you’re not familiar with it in Johnson Valley, you can wander around out there for quite some time before you find something.

Sean P. Holman (27m 47s):

And just because you find something doesn’t mean you can do it. I mean you may get to a trailhead or get in the middle of one and then go uhoh what now how do

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (27m 56s):

I get out?

Sean P. Holman (27m 57s):

Or not even some of those trails are hard to determine what the trail is. It just looks like the side of the mountain.

5 (28m 2s):

No, absolutely. Well one time we were out there, we were out there for probably three, four days and we were loading up ready to leave. Nobody was out there. I forgot what time of year it was, but we were on the way out and a couple trucks roll in from out of state and you can just kinda see ’em bombing down Boone Road. And then as soon as they hit the lake bed, they slowly just kind of slowed down, stopped, looked around, and then they didn’t move until

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (28m 27s):

Yeah, like where are we?

Sean P. Holman (28m 30s):

Yeah, and it’s, it’s easy out there to get, to get off your route for sure.

5 (28m 34s):

Yeah, yeah. So I, I approached ’em and I was like, Hey, You know, are you guys familiar with the area? And they’re like, where are the trails? And So I, I kind of gave ’em a few pointers and, and did what I could to help ’em out before we left. But I don’t know. I hope they had a good time. I don’t know who they were or, or don’t remember where they were from, but yeah, they, they didn’t really do much research before they showed up. So the, that map out,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (28m 57s):

Can anyone help us? Hello?

5 (28m 60s):


Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 0s):

Hello. Can anyone

Sean P. Holman (29m 2s):

Help us? They’re actually in the open desert. I don’t think they’re a

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 4s):

Tunnel. We’re lost. No, that’s a megaphone. They’ve got a

Sean P. Holman (29m 6s):

Megaphone. No they’re not, they’re not in a drainage or a sewer I know

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 8s):

That’s a PA system. Oh, hello? They, oh Steven, can you help us?

Sean P. Holman (29m 13s):

No, I don’t, I don’t think that’s accurate.

5 (29m 16s):

Maybe not that loud, but it would probably would’ve helped to have a megaphone, honestly, because,

Sean P. Holman (29m 20s):

Or you do what our friend Bernard Leer does and just start lighting, you know, tires on fire.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 24s):

Oh yeah,

Sean P. Holman (29m 25s):

The steering Wheel comes off in your hand. Is

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 27s):

That what he was, the tires? No, I thought it was something else. I don’t know. Something lit,

Sean P. Holman (29m 30s):

Something black and rubbery that made a lot of smoke. Yeah,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 32s):

So you’ve got ’em for Ocotillo Wells. Really famous spots in southern California. Ocotillo Wells Glam Dunes, Johnson Valley, the San Bernardino National Forest. You’ve got maps for quite a few spots here in, in southern California. You’ve got a Baja of course. What is your, do you have plans for some of our East Coast listeners?

5 (29m 55s):

I do actually. So the, some of the more famous parks out there are project that have gotten started. They’ve been more difficult to work on because I, I have approached some of the parks directly and they don’t really have much interest in, in working with me in most cases, but that’s not always the case. I don’t know if you’ve heard of a place called Carolina Adventure Row. Almost done with that one. And then I’ve got a few others in here that are wrapping up. Forgive me, I don’t have them all off the top of my head here, but I’ve got now how

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (30m 27s):

Do you go about Steve making, how do you go about making a map? Are, are you just doing Latin launch? Like how are, are you using Google Earth You know what’s your,

Sean P. Holman (30m 35s):

You have, do you have a base map or are you using a lorent base map?

5 (30m 39s):

Every project is a little bit different, but typically what I do is I don’t use Google like pretty much at all. All of my data is actually, like, for the background is not satellite imagery, it’s actually aerial imagery. So these are pictures taken from a plane at low like flyovers. So I’ll start with that, covering the area that I’m gonna cover. Then the, the data that I lay on top of there usually comes directly from the Forestry Service or BLM National Park Service. It just depends on the area. But that data needs a lot of cleanup because some of this data goes back 20, 30 years, the inception of GPS and some of it’s a lot newer, some of it’s incomplete, as you guys probably know over time the roads will, will actually migrate.

5 (31m 24s):

So you figure if you have a lot of traffic going down a, a curved road, that road can have tendency over a long period of time to, to migrate to the outside of the turn. Or let’s say there’s a washout, something weird and then somebody decides to go around it and then everybody else starts to go around it. You know five, 10 years later now that’s the more prominent route and it You know you’re in the middle of the desert. So these kinds of things don’t get corrected sometimes and it’s, it’s hard to say what’s right and what’s wrong unless you’re, you’re actually on the ground. So I’ll take a lot of this data, overlay it on top of the imagery, make sure everything lines up and makes sense. Anything that doesn’t make sense, then I am boots on the ground and I I go check it out.

5 (32m 7s):

So this could be a very, very time consuming process, making sure that all the data is correct.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (32m 13s):

H how do you receive feedback from, like you said, boots on the ground, like you are doing this Carolina Adventure Park, if we have listeners that want to contribute to some of these courses, like, hey, you’re five feet too far to the left or whatever, how do they give you feedback?

5 (32m 28s):

So usually I’ll, I’ll work with the, like in that instance I’m working with the park directly, which is actually a pretty rare thing. Typically I’m, I’m out doing it myself. Like for example is one that like, it’s close to home but it’s very, it was a very complicated one because BLM jurisdiction covers like three different field offices. But then the land is also California state parks at the same time. So it was a disaster. So I, I got a bunch of data from them just to get me started, but then I eventually scrapped it all and just bombed around in my extera for like, I don’t even remember how many days it was, but it was literally wake up at sunup, pedal of the metal all day sleep, wake up the next morning, pedal the metal all day and I got fresh live tracks for every road in a, you

Sean P. Holman (33m 14s):

Just describe my favorite Saturday and Sunday and

5 (33m 18s):

Monday. Yeah.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (33m 19s):

Although are you normally cud to the metal? You like kind of, you gotta of waltz through the

Sean P. Holman (33m 24s):

No, go fast. Why do you I got 81 hundreds dude. Yeah, I got big

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (33m 27s):

Shocks. you know, I’m not saying you can’t, but generally speaking

Sean P. Holman (33m 30s):

No, I like, I like to

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (33m 31s):

Be trounce Do it. Do you

Sean P. Holman (33m 32s):

I Mean? I usually cruise when I can 45, 55 miles an hour. Oh okay. Yeah. I like to cover ground. I like to do a hundred plus miles in a day and still get to camp by 3:00 PM So I’m there before the sun goes down and I can set up camp and actually enjoy camp for a little while.

5 (33m 46s):

There you go. Sounds good. I

Sean P. Holman (33m 48s):

Like it. Yep.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (33m 49s):

So these maps that you have built are all available at Rugged and then you also have a selection of GPS devices, one in which I find really cool and I don’t know if you built it or not, I wanna learn more about it. It’s not truck related necessarily, but a lot of our owners, a lot of our listeners have UTVs and you’ve got a UTV infrared belt temp sensor, which is GPS enabled because every guy, guy who races these things or is really hard on their UTVs smokes belts, it’s just like a thing. And there’s always a complaint about not being able to see the belt temp from the cockpit and for whatever reason,

Sean P. Holman (34m 31s):

Once the smoke comes out, it’s too late folks

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (34m 32s):

And for whatever reason, yeah, no one displays it on any, any of the gauges in the cab and I think

Sean P. Holman (34m 39s):

’cause they don’t want you to know how bad it really is.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (34m 41s):

I don’t know. But, so here he’s got one that integrates, I guess into Lawrence. Tell us about it.

5 (34m 46s):

The Lawrence hardware has what’s called NEMA 2000. It’s a NEMA 2000 connection. It’s basically a marine grade data bus and it, it allows you to interface all sorts of things with it. So I created this belt temp sensor that integrates in with that existing standard and allows us to display that, that live belt temperature sensor data directly on the screen. So the, the overlay, the data overlays on the ln themselves are very configurable. So whether it’s your speed overground, your, your heading, your voltage and a number of other things that you can overlay on the screen right outta the box, this adds to that and just makes it really convenient.

5 (35m 28s):

So even if, let’s say you’re in a race car, let’s say you have two units, you can have those two units and when I say units two GPS devices network together and you have the Belt Tim sensor on there as well, you can even display it on, on both units at the same time. So it’s, it’s very expandable and pretty flexible setup

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (35m 46s):

For 240 bucks. You should be selling a lot of these because the people go through belts like crazy and they’re just guessing. And there are some, I only know of like two or three belt good temp sensors and everyone complains about ’em and I and, and this one integrates to the your GPS systems. You’re looking right, right on display. Display right there for you. Yeah. Yeah. So, I I mean you need to be placed in some Facebook ads my friend like get this, get this out there.

5 (36m 14s):

Yeah, no, absolutely. Actually when this product first got launched, I put a lot of effort into getting a lot of media together and all sorts of stuff and I, I was You know getting really excited gearing up to, to do the big unveiling right? And, and just push it out on all the, the networks. And that was about, about a week or two before Covid So I was like, Hey, I got this great new product and then lights out worldwide. Right? So it was terrible timing to launch a product that’ll do it. Yeah. So that was, that was kind of a rough one and it was a really slow launch after that. I did have a number of customers that were in the loop on it leading up to it. So I got them taken care of and have been telling ’em ever since.

5 (36m 57s):

But it, it definitely didn’t have the product launch that I was really hoping for, but it’s, it’s still done. Well

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (37m 3s):

We need to get this in the hands of our buddy Corey Willis at PPEI. He’s a really, he’s an avid racer. Like he’s not pro level yet. I, I’m gonna semi-pro, I don’t know what it is. I don’t know what class he’s journeyman but I know he’s fricking fast. So fast but not fast enough to be pro. I don’t know, I think pro is about like pro amateur. Your your sponsorship, you ProAm right? I don’t know. I’ll ask him regardless. I’m gonna send him the link. This is good. Let’s do it.

5 (37m 28s):

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, just so You know, I’ve got a number of other networkable accessories that will tap into that same NEMA 2000 port. ’cause you’re not limited to one device. The cool thing about that interface, is there a limit? You just add a, there is technically a limit, but if you ever hit that limit in a race car, I would be questioning the

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (37m 51s):


5 (37m 52s):

Or the car welder sanity. There’s the limit’s very high. You could, you could hook up about 250 or so devices.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (38m 1s):

So is this like, like can bus, how does this work?

5 (38m 4s):

It is a version of can buss. Ah. So yeah, so on the, on the physical layer it’s can buss and then there’s a marine standard stacked on top of that.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (38m 12s):

Gotcha. And what else are you working on? Can you tell us, can you divulge the secret sauce?

5 (38m 17s):

We can talk about one of ’em. ’cause it’s actually posted on the website already. It’s not available yet, but I did just post it. It’s the device there called the trail mark. It’s basically a USB interface for a, a programmable like macro keypad. And so the intent here is for the guys that are out doing a lot of pre-running, you can pre-program all your notes into a macro keypad and now you have a single button press race notes.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (38m 42s):

This is called a trail mark and it is a, it looks like four by six. So there’s 24 square buttons. It looks like it’s USB. So you would just put what a, you’d put your own markers on each button. It would would

Sean P. Holman (38m 57s):

Be like double danger or sheer drop off or silt bed. and you basically can just hit those and mark that as you’re going through them.

5 (39m 5s):

Exactly. And well the production ones, I’ve got a few prototypes and I’ve got a couple races that have been playing with the, the prototypes. But the production ones, the what’s gonna happen is you’ll have the option to drop way points off to the left and right of your current location as well as drop it off to the left and right of where you were say three seconds ago. So if you pass something or if you’re notoriously hitting something a second or two late, then when you hit the button it’s

Sean P. Holman (39m 30s):

Like Lightning with the

5 (39m 30s):

Drops actually the way point where

Sean P. Holman (39m 32s):

You back, how dare you light lighting these drops that basically when he pushes the button it’s, it goes back in time three seconds earlier it goes

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (39m 39s):

Back in time. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Sean P. Holman (39m 41s):

Yeah, exactly.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (39m 43s):

Now Hold on, I’m, I’m really interested in the trail mark mainly because of the price. I just can’t get over how,

Sean P. Holman (39m 51s):

How, how affordable they’re just giving ’em away. Horrible. This

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (39m 53s):

Is at $0 and 0 cents. I. Mean You know I’m gonna buy 10 of them. You

Sean P. Holman (39m 59s):

Definitely have 0 cents.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (40m 0s):


Sean P. Holman (40m 1s):

True. You either there both spellings. See you were late again on this. I was,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (40m 6s):


5 (40m 7s):

So the price will be determined on that but we’ll, we’ll get that nailed down. And then just so You know too, you’re not limited to that keypad. So there’s a number of different keypads that have different numbers of keys. So there’s a company called X Keys and if you check them out online, they’ve got keypads, you can get 128 keys if you want to go really crazy. So you’re not limited to that 24. You can scale down to something like a four or a six key keypad if you wanna.

Sean P. Holman (40m 31s):

So basically it would be thumbs up, thumbs down and death. Those would be the, the three keys on that one. Right?

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (40m 37s):

I Mean listen at some point. Exactly. At some point you’re just actually typing words in You know. You’re like, don’t go over this bump right here. ’cause it drops off on the other side as a widow maker, like no

Sean P. Holman (40m 47s):

Truck gobbler. Right?

5 (40m 48s):

Yeah. Obviously that’s gonna be a bit overkill, but I feel like the, the 24 key or like 18 key something in there would be pretty usable for, for a lot of people. But there are some navigators out there that like having a lot of options. So having this as an interface that then the navigator can kind of bring their own keypad. It’s kind of cool. So if you have this interface that’s say in a car or in a pre-runner and you’re, you’re swapping navigators all the time, the navigator could just bring their keypad. You’re not stuck with You know the car or whatever call.

Sean P. Holman (41m 21s):

Yeah, I gotta get a partner pumper, I gotta get a helmet, I gotta race suit and a keyboard. Now

5 (41m 26s):

You gotta get a keyboard. Exactly. Well

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (41m 28s):

It’s, it’s better than a laptop. You know what I Mean like can you imagine all the dust that’s getting in the keys and all this and the laptop? Oh this is gonna be Oh that’d be terrible. This is gonna be ruggedized. Yeah.

Sean P. Holman (41m 35s):

The they also offer, you got the Loren serious weather and radio receiver, which is pretty cool. ’cause you can overlay weather on your maps too, right? That that’s a pretty handy heat feature to have for people that are in terrain that is determined sometimes by what the weather’s doing. Yep,

5 (41m 51s):

Absolutely. So that’s actually a, a ance accessory that was originally made for the marine market, but it You know it doesn’t matter if you’re on land or water or whatever. So you can You know, definitely use the weather overlay And also use it for receiving satellite, satellite radio. So you can pipe that into your stereo or whatever and use the, the loren your head. I

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (42m 12s):


Sean P. Holman (42m 12s):

Like that. But You know Lightning, who is also deaf complains that SiriusXM is too compressed and he hates all music on it.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (42m 21s):

I have a really rough time listening to SiriusXM, but you

Sean P. Holman (42m 24s):

Can’t even hear normal sounds. I hear

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (42m 26s):

Normal sounds just fine. Wait, are you talking? It’s just awful. All the high hats are slurred and voice is okay, but music has just got awful. It’s just awful. I Mean. It’s there if you’ve got, if it’s the only thing if you’re on a boat in the middle of, you know,

Sean P. Holman (42m 41s):

And your flippy

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (42m 42s):

Yeah. and you You know and you’re in the middle of mountains and the only thing reception you forgot all your MP threes and yeah, it’s fine for that. But yeah,

5 (42m 51s):

Audio for music in let’s say a, a headset in your helmet. Like if you’re gonna run it through an intercom or something in a side by side or something like that. It sucks.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (42m 59s):

It sucks anyway. Yeah,

5 (43m 0s):

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, just to kill the the dead the dead noise. Yeah.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (43m 6s):

Looking at Rugged Routes dot com, you’ve offered the full system. You can buy your low rans Baja HDS 10 Pro off-Road GPS system. You can get the maps. So you are kind of a one-stop shop as it appears at Rugged Routes dot com. Correct.

5 (43m 22s):

I don’t sleep. Yeah,

Sean P. Holman (43m 26s):

I’ll also add that You know the price points of ance is all over the place. It’s sometimes hard to know which unit to, to get, but you have a really nice compare feature on there as well so people can, can compare ’em and see exactly why one costs You know $3,600 and well another one might cost $2,000, so I’m sure since you don’t sleep Yep. They can just call you two and you can walk ’em through based on their use case.

5 (43m 51s):

Yep. I get that kind of question all the time. As well as I have a lot of how to videos and introductory type stuff on the Rugged Routes YouTube channel, which helps a lot of people out as well. A lot of walkthroughs on just how to do stuff with, if they get the unit straight out of the out of the box, they can use that as a great resource or if they get stuck, absolutely. Gimme a ring and I’ll do it again over the phone.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (44m 12s):

Let me, let me wrap this up with a kind of a basic question here about the, the someone like me who, when do I graduate from a handheld something on my iPhone? Like a, a piece of software or an app to a low ran navigation system

Sean P. Holman (44m 28s):

When you’re rich?

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (44m 29s):

No, it’s I know that they’re super expensive, but like at what point does the app not work for me anymore? Is that because I’m out of cell reception or when do I graduate? Why do I need a low rant as opposed to another offering?

5 (44m 45s):

Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So there’s a couple factors and I get this kind of question over the phone fairly often as well. And really the question I get is why, why buy this and, and I tell people? It’s, it really comes down to how you wanna manage your data. If you want a subscription based service on a device that is a bit more common, but not really meant to be bouncing around and and being out in the elements, then You know then don’t buy it. But the focus that I have on this as far as the mapping side of it goes is the simplicity of it. The the maps are delivered on an SD card. You don’t need to download anything You know before a trip.

5 (45m 27s):

You’re not having to purge your, your data in between trips. If you run outta space or any of those types of things, you just swap the chip. So as you build up a small library of different maps, you just, I keep ’em in like in a, a ski card case, like for Pelican makes one, they’re, they’re waterproof. So, I. Just throw that in my glove box and depending where I go, I just swap the chip out and it makes it really easy. It’s a one-time purchase, no subscriptions or anything like that as far as the hardware goes. You know, we’ve already kind of talked about that. They are robust. In fact, over at Lorent, when they test their, their hardware, they, they actually freeze these things as part of their, their testing. So it’s, it, it’s heavily, heavily tested and, and a robust piece of hardware.

5 (46m 13s):

But the other part of it is, is it depends on who you’re riding with and what you’re doing. So like if you’re a Raptor guy going on these Raptor runs or if you’re a UTV guy or, or also Raptor runs like down in Mexico or whatever, a lot of those types of groups will require you to have a as well. So there’s a couple factors how you wanna manage your data. Who are You writing with and really what are you

Sean P. Holman (46m 34s):

Doing? And if the guy running the machine is smart enough and knows how to push the right buttons, that’s

5 (46m 38s):

Where my YouTube channel comes in.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (46m 42s):

So you’ll find everything mentioned on the show so far at Rugged Routes dot com. Steven, you, you have been busy. Congrats on the success. This is, this is very cool. We’re probably gonna have to check in with you again as you unveil more products.

Sean P. Holman (46m 56s):

And don’t forget Rugged, Rocks off road for you Nissan fans. Also, if you’re looking for products that exist out there for your Nissan and if you’re having a hard time figuring out what the aftermarket offers, a lot of it’s all at Rugged. Rocks Offroad.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (47m 9s):

Yeah. and you and you guys on the East coast blow him up, get him to do some, some Texas and Montana and Florida Routes.

Sean P. Holman (47m 16s):

I like how you said the East Coast and then you immediately go to Texas and Montana. I,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (47m 19s):

That’s So I. I went to East coast, but then I realized I was about to skip the middle of the country. So then

Sean P. Holman (47m 23s):

Went back to Texas and you went back and you went back to Florida. Florida to Florida. Yes. Right, right.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (47m 26s):

That’s what happened. That’s how my mind works.

5 (47m 28s):

Yeah. De my, it’s all good. But yeah, definitely gimme a call on those. I, I’d love to hear from more people on the East coast. For sure.

Sean P. Holman (47m 34s):

Awesome man. Well we appreciate you carving out the time for us and let’s stay in touch.

5 (47m 39s):

Yeah. Thank you guys. Good. Having,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (47m 40s):

Thanks Steve.

Sean P. Holman (47m 41s):

We, I’ll call you when we get the Frontier Project going.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (47m 46s):

You know everyone can hear you, right? Oh yeah.

Sean P. Holman (47m 48s):

Well if, well, if, if, if you whisper

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (47m 49s):

It happens, they can still

Sean P. Holman (47m 50s):

Hear you. I’m just saying if we, if it, yeah. We’ll anyway, I’m just saying I know a guy.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (47m 55s):

Is this the project that we’re wanting? Talk about?

Sean P. Holman (47m 57s):

Yeah, we’re not talking about it yet. Oh, I’m just saying. I’m telling him. But they

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (47m 60s):

Heard you whisper it a minute

Sean P. Holman (48m 1s):

Ago. That’s fine. Just let it go. All right brother. Talk

5 (48m 5s):

To you soon. Yeah, definitely give a call All. right. Have a good one guys. All. right. Thanks.

Sean P. Holman (48m 8s):

See ya. Bye. Bye.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (48m 11s):

So Holman, if I’m not mistaken, you’ve got a review of some Diesel ness coming up.

Sean P. Holman (48m 18s):

Yes. It’s the truck that you actually rode in when we headed on down to the, the Bilstein party a few weeks ago. Yeah, that

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (48m 23s):

Was at Charcoal Gray. What’s it a 25 or 3,500? I can’t

Sean P. Holman (48m 27s):

Remember. Granite, crystal Ram. 2,500 Rebel

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (48m 30s):

All. right. So gimme some Truck review.

8 (48m 32s):

Truck review. Yeah. Dragon Truck Bug.

Sean P. Holman (48m 41s):

So it’s been almost a year since I have been in a Ram Diesel, so it was good to get reacquainted with it and a a lot of great upgrades for, for 24

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (48m 52s):

So I have a question. Are, are you going to go like drivetrain and interior suspension or how are you gonna break this

Sean P. Holman (48m 57s):

Up? Well, let me talk about what the Rebel is and it isn’t. So everybody’s familiar with the Power Wagon. It’s gas only, it’s four 10 gears. It’s 33 inch tires. It’s front rear lockers. It’s a disconnecting front sway bar. It’s a factory winch. All of that’s in the Power Wagon. The problem is the power wagon only has a payload of 1,610 pounced and the Power Wagon can only tow 10,570 pounced. So there’s a gazillion people out there said, I really love the Power Wagon, it’s the truck for me, but I need a Diesel. And by the way, I don’t quite need all that off-road capability. I’d rather have more hauling payload and work capability. But I like that look, I like it. So Ram said, okay, we’re gonna do a Rebel HD.

Sean P. Holman (49m 38s):

So that’s taken off from the Rebel that is on the 1500 and basically applying a similar package to the 2,500 but make it kinda like a power wagon light. So you can still get 33 inch tires. They’re all terrains but they’re on a 20 inch Wheel. You can still get a locker, but it’s rear only, there’s no more front sway bar disconnect and you aren’t able to get the $2,500 factory winch on a non Gass Rebel rebel’s available in both gas and Diesel. So that’s a good thing. Now if you get a gas Rebel, that 10,570 jumps up to 16,870 for towing and your payload jumps up to 3,140 pounced from, that’s from sizable

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (50m 24s):

From gas to Diesel.

Sean P. Holman (50m 25s):

So, wow. No, from gas to gas. Oh,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (50m 27s):

From gas to gas.

Sean P. Holman (50m 28s):

So gas to Diesel. If you choose the Diesel option on the Rebel HD, you go from 16 8 70 on the gas to 14,920 on the Diesel. So it’s still a sizeable jump from ten five seventy and your payload goes to almost 2000 pounced 1980 versus the 31 40. That Diesel engine weighs a lot in the drivetrain. Gotcha. But you get 1980 versus the 1610 on the power wagon. So I think it’s the right truck for people who want that power wagon look and, and overall aggressiveness and and near power wagon off-road capability but need more capability for everyday driving. Of course the six four is 4 10, 4 29 on horsepower and torque.

Sean P. Holman (51m 10s):

And the Ram six seven, it’s a non ho so it’s 370 horsepower and 850 pound feet of torque. And

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (51m 15s):

Can you get the ho do You know? Oh

Sean P. Holman (51m 17s):

No, I do not believe you can get the ho because it’s on a 2,500. Oh

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (51m 20s):

Yeah. Ho’s only 3,500. So you

Sean P. Holman (51m 22s):

Get the rear coil springs. Some of the upgrades are, you get skid plates, you get the, the 20 inch Wrangler dirt track tires, 30 threes on a 20 inch Wheel. You get Bill Stein shocks, just like the power wagon tuned differently for the, for the Diesel. And then you get a bunch of other cool things. There’s a kind of a induction looking hood.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (51m 41s):

Don’t gloss past that. Like that hood is one of the first things I noticed. Like it stands up proudly. It kinda

Sean P. Holman (51m 46s):

Looks like a 3 92 hood except on a Ram.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (51m 48s):

Oh yeah, okay. Yeah, I guess you’re right. It’s like, what is it, like two and a half, three inches taller than the normal

Sean P. Holman (51m 53s):

Hood? Yeah, it definitely has a more aggressive hood bulge to it than, than on the standard truck. And the 20 fours also have those really dumb new mirrors.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (52m 2s):

I’m torn on those. I don’t, I don’t like them. So it looks like all the guys that we make fun of, they look like

Sean P. Holman (52m 7s):

Your trailer toe mirrors up all the time.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (52m 8s):

Exactly. But they’re not as dumb looking as when you accidentally leave your tow mirrors up. No,

Sean P. Holman (52m 14s):

They’re integrated. They have the LED lights to ’em, they have cameras integrated in them, they have blind spot, all that stuff. I get all that. But they’re not as velt as the original HD mares. And the other thing is there’s a lot less visibility. They block a lot more outward visibility from the truck than the old mares. This also has the new digital cluster, which I, I’m torn on digital clusters because I just think if they go wrong then whatever. But I guess they’re pretty reliable now. and I guess all the needles are attached to computers these days anyway. So I just like the physical gauges. But this one’s not bad because it’s super configurable. There’s like eight different things that you can do with it to make it show you the parameters or parameters that you want it to.

Sean P. Holman (52m 55s):


9 (52m 56s):

Monitor key engine

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (52m 58s):

Parameters. Can’t just say that and go through it, just steamroll Overall

Sean P. Holman (53m 2s):

I was really impressed with, with the truck. It’s nice and quiet. I will say that the one thing I would change on that truck. Can you, can you guess what it’s,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (53m 11s):

Well the mirrors, but aside from the meters

Sean P. Holman (53m 14s):

I can live with the mirrors, they’re just not my favorite.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (53m 15s):

Ah, what would you, wow. What would you, oh god, suspension.

Sean P. Holman (53m 20s):

What did you think about the ride quality and how quiet it was going down to up that way.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (53m 25s):

So a very, very quiet inside. Still bumpy. I feel like it’s that first inch of travel is just too, still too rigid. Boy, it’s not the suspension. What would you change?

Sean P. Holman (53m 40s):

I would put a 18 inch Wheel on it. There’s just not enough

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (53m 43s):

Sidewalk. Oh, you need more tire. I

Sean P. Holman (53m 45s):

I think if you had more tire sidewall, that truck would be way more pleasant to go. It, it’s, it’s nice on smooth roads. The Bill stein’s do an incredible job. But you’re right, it’s that like broken pavement, that little square edge stuff. It’s the really sharp stuff in that first You know kind of inch, inch and a half of travel that’s all going through your sidewall. A hundred percent So I. I think that a 20 was the wrong choice. I know They did it because they wanted to have a big Wheel and a big truck. But I really think an 18 would’ve been the sweet spot on this

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (54m 11s):

One. But the twenties do look better. I mean you, you I know

Sean P. Holman (54m 14s):

They look okay. The the Wheel design is a welding

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (54m 16s):

Wheel. Well I I know, I, it’s it, it’s not a great Wheel style, but I’m glad that want the twenties ’cause it was that ugly style on an 18. It would look. And can I ask you this? Would the brakes have fit under an 18?

Sean P. Holman (54m 28s):

The Power Wagon has 17 So I would imagine. Yes.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (54m 32s):

What did you feel about the the power I Mean? There has been some minor changes to the six seven Cummins over the last You know since oh seven and a half when it debuted. But not like major major.

Sean P. Holman (54m 44s):

This truck is still a DJ body style I know there’s been a ton of changes, the new dash with the, the this generation. But it’s a little rough around some of the edges, not the interior, the interior spectacular. I, I love everything about it, but you could still hear that big old fan on the Cummins at times feel like it’s pulling you like an airplane propeller through the parking lot. The way the shifter is on the column. There’s that interface into the, the drive train is definitely a clunk and is very, very positive. Some people like that, some people won’t like that. I’m indifferent to it but I’m just throwing it out there. But on the power delivery, I feel like basically for the most part, all the Fords and GMs have a really amazing spec on power.

Sean P. Holman (55m 30s):

If this thing had either an eight speed automatic instead of a six speed or even a 10 speed, like the competitors and like 400 horsepower, it would be pretty good. The pedal has some latency to it and there’s still a little bit of turbo lag, which I think You know, obviously Banks makes a bunch of stuff that can kind of tune all that out and help with it. But I feel like it’s just a little bit short on horsepower because when you go to pass somebody, it’s, it’s fast. It’ll do zero to 60 in seven and a half seconds for a big truck. But it doesn’t push you back the way the Super Duty does now.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (55m 59s):

That’s true. And we, we talk about turbo lag all the time when we mention, you know, products like the pedal monster, stuff like that. But man, there’s, there is a lot of it and it’s hard to get by ’cause some guys really complain like it’s, I don’t wanna say it’s dangerous, but it, it’s borderline dangerous when you’re trying to pass and you hit the, the pedal and there’s just, there’s nothing fricking there. And it’s so different in the Ford. Like it is so wildly different in the Ford it’s just V eight versus that Lumbering Strait

Sean P. Holman (56m 26s):

Six. Well the other thing is, I don’t know if You know Ford makes their own engine now, right? And Ram is integrating somebody else’s engine into the platform. I know you guys love your Cummins, we all love our Cummins. But I think that that is an extra layer of engineering that has to get done and it doesn’t always feel like a perfect match. There’s a few little holes that I, I found in it. Don’t get me wrong, I love the truck. These are fantastic trucks and most people will never need 850 pound feet of torque, let alone a thousand of some of the competitors or the high output version of this. But the high output version of this engine definitely feels a lot sportier in this. Like I said, it just needs a little bit more 400 horsepower, maybe 900 pound feet of torque.

Sean P. Holman (57m 10s):

Not a lot, just a little bit to help it scoot a little bit more. And the other thing is, I’ll laugh because you guys are gonna kick my butt for saying this, but with that eight 50, it’s no slouch. You could hear the tire rubber go

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (57m 24s):


Sean P. Holman (57m 24s):

Acceleration as the tread blocks absolutely scream in protest, which is a little bit funny.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (57m 30s):

See I don’t think you need more horsepower or torque. It just takes too long to get there because there’s only so much the VG turbo can do. The turbo’s just too big in my opinion. So what,

Sean P. Holman (57m 40s):

What would you do to get that out? Would a pedal monster fix it? A monster Ram a I think big ass intake, a filter intake.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (57m 47s):

So So I think that there are airflow solutions that will for sure help. Like they’ll definitely help, but I think they need, you need like a compound turbo or something. I, I

Sean P. Holman (57m 59s):

Honestly think if you had an eight speed transmission you would solve a lot of that problem because,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (58m 3s):

But I drive the ho dude like we our 20 ho it has the same issue. Yeah, you’ve got a lower gear but yeah, but

Sean P. Holman (58m 10s):

Your ho’s on a probably a heavier truck, right? It’s a, it’s it a dually

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (58m 13s):

It’s, it’s a, no it’s a 3,500 single rear Wheel and I drove it when it had the stock tires. You know it’s very similar setup on twenties and then You know on now it’s sitting on 30 sevens. Of course it’s worse on 30 sevens We didn never geared or anything. But I really think that they need a smaller turbo. They need a smaller turbo feeding the bigger whatever, however it works in a compound set setup. Or, or, or, or twins that are smaller because it just doesn’t spool up fast enough. That’s the biggest problem. I think it’s got all the horsepower you need that’s turned into a Lightning review. But like that’s my issue with the Cummins. I think it’s a fricking awesome engine. It just takes forever to

Sean P. Holman (58m 51s):

Get there. Yeah, I think if you haven’t driven the competition, you don’t know how good the durmax and the Powerstroke engines have become now. Because there was a point where probably seven, eight years ago where they were roughly on par and the, the Cummins, I think when it was first to hit that a thousand was pretty amazing. And the, I’ll tell you right now, the competitors have not slept on that powertrain at all. Other than that the, it feels like a Ram, the seating position is Ram. You step up tall on it. This truck didn’t have any sidesteps on it. So you like had to hoist yourself. My kid almost fell out and I dropped her off at school one morning. She forgot. I kind of surprised

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (59m 28s):

How tall it was. They, why didn’t they put steps of

Sean P. Holman (59m 30s):

Offroad model? They got media taking that thing off road. It’s a Rebel HD. They don’t want to, you know, have body damage and people pushing ’em into the body or ripping ’em off. Gotcha. But they offer it. So if you wanted that, that’d be great. Otherwise it’s, it’s a great all around truck. I was, I was happy to, to be in it for a week and get reacquainted with it. and I did something like in You know, like I said, short of a thousand miles, I think my best tank was like 19 miles per gallon and I think my mixed driving was something like You know 15 or something that’s still pretty good. and I was like, I was totally fine with that. and I was on a truck that had like a thousand miles so it wasn’t even broken in yet. And I amazing how quiet it was on smooth pavement.

op of your roof. Hmm.